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12 Sep 2011
By DeathroW22

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Used market cost Heavy Rain 1m sales

63 Replies 854 Views Created 12-09-2011
12 Sep 2011
By DeathroW22

"It may also be the only game you play this year where pulling the trigger makes you really feel something, and I can think of no greater compliment."

Heavy Rain developer Quantic Dream believes it lost one million customers, and "between €5 and €10 million", to second-hand sales.


"I can take just one example of Heavy Rain," Quantic Dream co-founder Guillaume de Fondaumiere told GamesIndustry.biz. "We basically sold to date approximately two million units. We know from the Trophy system that probably more than three million people bought this game and played it.


"On my small level it's a million people playing my game without giving me one cent. And my calculation is, as Quantic Dream, I lost between €5 and €10 million worth of royalties because of second-hand gaming."

At the heart of the argument, believes Fondaumiere, is price.

 

"Now, are games too expensive?" he asked.

"I've always said that games are probably too expensive, so there's probably a right level here to find, and we need to discuss this all together and try to find a way to reconcile consumer expectations, retail expectations and also the expectations of the publisher and the developers to make this business a worthwhile business."


Fondaumiere believes the global recession gave rise to the second-hand video game market. He understands that without it, less games would probably have been bought, due to the removal of trade-in discounts.


But, at the moment, "we're basically all shooting ourselves in the foot", he declared.

"Because when developers and publishers alike are going to see that they can't make a living out of producing games that are sold through retail channels, because of second-hand gaming, they will simply stop making these games," he said, or move exclusively online.


Heavy Rain, a PS3 exclusive, was released in February 2010. In his Heavy Rain review, Tom Bramwell called the game "a thrilling mystery, cleverly composed and unlike anything else you will play this year".


 http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-09-12-used-market-cost-heavy-rain-1m-sales

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"On my small level it's a million people playing my game without giving me one cent. And my calculation is, as Quantic Dream, I lost between €5 and €10 million worth of royalties because of second-hand gaming.



And my calculation is from his numbers, he made 10 to 20 million from royalties.

 

Is that not enough?

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Warren_Jeeves wrote:

"On my small level it's a million people playing my game without giving me one cent. And my calculation is, as Quantic Dream, I lost between €5 and €10 million worth of royalties because of second-hand gaming.



And my calculation is from his numbers, he made 10 to 20 million from royalties.

 

Is that not enough?



It depends entirely on how much it costs to develop.

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Keep in mind that every developer is watching these 'figures', which is why we'll see items such as online passes and episodic content increase allowing studios to claw pack some of the 'lost' revenue from second hand sales.

 

However, Developers and Studios need to play their part and reduce the initial cost of console games, which are most time priced at least (based on RRP) £15 to £20 more than their PC counterparts. That's not right, especially considering the console base is probably the larger sales base. They saw 'us' coming. ;)

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That part is down to the platform holders. Though, I don't think the price of games is bad at all, even on consoles. Admittedly, the lower price of games on PC pushes me towards that instead (and with the constant sales on steam), but I don't mind the price of console games. It'd be nice if they were lower, of course, but it's what allows Sony and Microsoft to sell their console (and some services) at a loss, so they get a return from the games.

I can't see either the platform holders or the game publishers budging on the price, but if is going to be anyone, it'd probably have to be the publishers.
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I can well understand the programmers and the smaller games outfits in having a dim view of the second-hand market. However, with the big-boys pushing out new games at £40 a shot, for what MAY be a half-decent gaming experience, perhaps they can see our side of the argument.

I honestly don't believe that new games HAVE to be that expensive. I think it's a classic case of 'let's see how much we can ask for this product. After all, it's an <<Industry Standard>> pricing point'.

It's now a downward spiral, as people will no longer accept rushed or sub-standard products at these inflated prices, buy it pre-owned and thereby giving the big boys an excuse to continue with the inflated prices.

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yeah but its a double edged sword.....how many games less would they have sold without the trade in market?

 

Trade in are used to purchace many new games.....and many people buy on the basis if they dont like it they can trade it in.

 

With the price of games I think people would be less inclined to try new games  without a trade in market and stick to establihed well known titles.

 

On the other side I can't see why Devs put out games that cost £40.00 with 10 hour campaigns then wonder why people are trading them in so quickly. 

 

They need to look at replay value, and insentivise people to keep their games longer. Maybe something like FREE dlc, or Beta access to the next game (like Halo ODST) They just need to find some reasons for you to hold onto your disk. The current trend of just making it difficult for second hand buyers will only alienate customers in the longterm.

 

 

 

 

 

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On the flipside, 1 million people played the game that wouldn't have otherwise bought the game brand new.

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SlickShoes wrote:

On the flipside, 1 million people played the game that wouldn't have otherwise bought the game brand new.



True, and if they liked it they might be more inclined to buy that developrs next game.

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Yeah, 1 million people (estimations) bought the game second hand, supporting the used game market. You know what that does? It encourages the retailers to push their own used copies of the game, because that is large profits for them. And you know what that means? The retailers can stop ordering in new copies of the game because they recycle their old games that they buy and sell off customers.

Developers were fine with the used game market up until the retailers made a market out of it, which may I remind you are screwing the guys that do sell their games in, because of the usually absolutely horrible prices they offer. Yet you'll take the side of the retailers any day, instead of the people who own the content.

I 100% support game passes for the used game market, because it is the retailers who are in the wrong here, not the developers and not the gamers.

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The used market debate is one that will never be resolved...But I don't like how much profit these retailers are making from doing very little.
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I'd support a system that allows gamers to trade and sell games to each other because then:

1) The gamers aren't being screwed by insulting prices
2) It isn't being encouraged to sell in multiple games (adding more used games to the market) for one single new game, which are then, each of them, being sold instead of new games (decreasing the amount of new games the retailer orders in).

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Why don't the developers/studios attempt to construct a deal with retailers so that they get a % of re-sale? Surely that's the best of both worlds.
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DeathroW22 wrote:

Yeah, 1 million people (estimations) bought the game second hand, supporting the used game market. You know what that does? It encourages the retailers to push their own used copies of the game, because that is large profits for them. And you know what that means? The retailers can stop ordering in new copies of the game because they recycle their old games that they buy and sell off customers.

Developers were fine with the used game market up until the retailers made a market out of it, which may I remind you are screwing the guys that do sell their games in, because of the usually absolutely horrible prices they offer. Yet you'll take the side of the retailers any day, instead of the people who own the content.

I 100% support game passes for the used game market, because it is the retailers who are in the wrong here, not the developers and not the gamers.



I agree with your first point as the retaillers arent playing fair whatsoever and the margins can be a little offensive BUT they need it to survive.

 

The second point I take issue with because the perspective is wrong. If they are taking the view that someone else is making a profit  is the issue then I hate them even more. However; they arent. they are using it as an excuse to sell the passes. They HAVENT done anything to combat the second hand sales and they have full legal rights to do so and could easily prevent retaillers from selling second hand games; but they havent.  They know how much the second hand game market is worth to them due to the afforementioned reasons.

 

Consider this.  "where would the industry be without the second hand market"

 

They could do a lot to prevent the second hand market but they don't.  You should ask yourself why.

 

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Danlisa wrote:
Why don't the developers/studios attempt to construct a deal with retailers so that they get a % of re-sale? Surely that's the best of both worlds.


Because the retailers won't.

 

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Wow the greed of these people just amazes me, first pirates are the villains and now people who should dare to go out and buy a second hand game are stealing their precious money from them.

 

How can they loose what they never had? do they ever consider that the people whom bought this second hand would not have paid full price for it as they simply don't think it's that good of a game.

 

I buy the vast majority of my games new but this was certainly one of the tiles I would not so I guess I'm stealing their money as I did not buy it new from them?

 

Maybe these devs should get there heads out their own arse, produce quality with longevity without customers occurring further costs in the way of add-on etc and with a fair price point for a new game then they might not have so much to whinge about.

 

Seriously I am bored with these suits claiming they are so hard done too whilst sitting on their mass fortunes. There greed will ultimately cause more damage than anything else and they will only have themselves to blame when their studio goes down the tubes.

 

 

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Turdboy wrote:

Wow the greed of these people just amazes me, first pirates are the villains and now people who should dare to go out and buy a second hand game are stealing their precious money from them.

 

How can they loose what they never had? do they ever consider that the people whom bought this second hand would not have paid full price for it as they simply don't think it's that good of a game.

 

I buy the vast majority of my games new but this was certainly one of the tiles I would not so I guess I'm stealing their money as I did not buy it new from them?

 

Maybe these devs should get there heads out their own arse, produce quality with longevity without customers occurring further costs in the way of add-on etc and with a fair price point for a new game then they might not have so much to whinge about.

 

Seriously I am bored with these suits claiming they are so hard done too whilst sitting on their mass fortunes. There greed will ultimately cause more damage than anything else and they will only have themselves to blame when their studio goes down the tubes.

 

 


 

 

QFT

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I can't believe how many ppl think that the game developers deserve to have their hard earned cash stolen from them.

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Most of the games now adays are simply not worth the price tag the carry, developers no the can release half finished games and then fix issues with updates. On the other hand then you have the people that can't afford to pay full price for a game and tend to use the pre owned markets to pick up at a later date or find some bargains.
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Exactly penny it really does come down to greed at time tbh
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Greed/Business.

The games industry is not a public service.
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