Demon's Souls

[Solid_Snake12345]

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DrTrouserPlank wrote:

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Royston99 wrote:
I have always been very curious about Demons/Dark Soul... I have watched videos of gameplay and reviews, etc, and it seems to be, once you get used to the fact that you will die more times in the first level than you have ever in all other games i'v ever played combined, a fun game. The twist where players "Invade" your game looks really cool too. I might just get this is i find it reasonably cheap. is the server still live for Demons for players invading? I know people have said that it can be better to have PSN logged out in order not to get killed by someone invading the game, but i feel that takes away some of the fun so would love to play it to its full potential

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The server is still live as of today. In theory it could be discontinued at a moment's notice tomorrow though.

Dying isn't fun. Even if it seems like you'd be able to tolerate it, you won't. You won't enjoy playing the same slow, tedious sections over and over only to be killed in the same spot, or by some cheap trick that is designed to be unavoidable the first time you reach it.

You can buy it for about £13. If someone offered you £13 to play it for three hours straight, you'd give up well before you got your money. It's a terrible game and I can only assume that people say it's so great because they think that clearing it is some sort of badge or honour. All it is is a function of time invested, and unenjoyable time at that.

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Contrary to DrTrouserPlank's blatant and obvious antipathy towards Demon's Souls it is definitely worth getting as it's probably one of the deepest RPGs (I'd say it undoubtedly is once you start getting involved in the PvP side of things) on the PS3 that's difficulty is vastly overexagerated. The online server is still online and I believe Atlas have said they'll continue to support it while players play. Namco is the real wild card however as they don't display much interest and haven't ever made it clear how long the servers would be up. The EU servers also aren't as active as the US ones so getting a US copy could be preferrable.

Anyway, Plank is certainly correct in stating that dying isn't fun and that the game has a slow pace. That is absolutely, undeniably true. Upon death, all souls are lost which aren't just used to level up but as money also and to retrieve them you have to reach the spot you died previously without dying. This, combined with the absense of checkpoints can make dying very frustrating. The pace is, as a result of this harsh punishment, slower than any other action game I can think of. After the first level (where you'll die probably about fifteen or twenty times as you adjust to the pace, the timing of the dodges, the weapon attack times, the rolling weight limit and management of healing items) you become much more cautious. You'll approach areas slower, you won't run straight through doors but instead walk towards them and roll back out of the way and you may use a shield for the first few areas while you learn to roll (learning how to time a roll is absolutely crucial and rather easy after practice that is an essential yool to survive. With the exception of maybe one area in the game [I'm referring to 4-2 magic projectiles to any experienced players reading]) you shouldn't really need to use a shield to block attacks). The level design is extremely varied and the style of combat and the difficulty to dodge enemies varies with it. In the narrow suspended walkways in Latria, spacing ends up beieng hugely important as sideways rolls aren't possible whereas in Boletaria closing the gap between you and enemy archers means rushing is an essential to survive.

However, while I say he's correct in that death is not fun but frustrating, living, and being near death iswithout a doubt the most thrilling aspect of the game. Playing through the first time is almost reminiscint of the movie Alien. You're wandering around into the unknown, not knowing what lays a head of you in the dark areas (or sometimes the lit areas end up being worse as you can see what's a head) unsure whether to retreat back to get more supplies or to press on in the hope that the level is nearly finished. Once near death, the game's pace is put into overdrive as you either try to rush to safety to heal or continue fighting the enemies, knowing that one mistake will kill you. The level design once again plays a huge part in this tension and the despairing atmosphere is present throughout the game. The story is told in an extremely unconventional sense in that it is almost all implied throughout and never force fed to you (despite the bare premise of it)). 

In Demon's Souls, despite Plank's rather idiotic statement that cheap deaths are common even though he only played an hour (which means he played the tutorial, an area where you aren't meant to die [and really shouldn't since unless you're new to action games even rushing and mindless attacking will succeed] and the first area in the game [which contains arguably one of the only cheap deaths in the game which is a trap that is very difficult to avoid first time]), they are definitely not. If Dark Souls was talked about, this statement would be a complete lie but most deaths (almost all) in Demon's 'Souls can be avoided by the application of logic (such as "hmm, I wonder if jumping down from the top of numerous sets of stairs to the ground floor that I can't see will kill me?" or "These signs tell me not to fight this difficult enemy but hey! I'll do it anyway), timing/reaction speed (the ability to dodge enemies, traps etc.) and preperation (5-2 anybody?). Overconfidence (this'll usually happen after you beat a boss or don't die in awhile), panicking (when you reach low life and are near your blood stain for me) or silly mistakes (using a heavy attack when you mean to use a light attack or pressing a button accidentally and attacking an NPC for example) will usually lead to death. Even for the limited number of cheap deaths in the game it is very easy to get back to where you were as once you've beaten the enemies once, beating them again is a trivial task (except for maybe the skeletons, mindslayers and black phantoms).

And all that is neglecting the depth of the stat system, the excellent online, the terrific graphics which compliment and bolster the atmosphere and the hours of replayability. Honestly, I bought it knowing almost nothing about it. After about an hour and a half of playing, I thought it was ok, probably over-rated and a rather unremarkable game. After about 650 hours of playing it, about six or seven characters, I can safely say that it is without a doubt my favourite Playstation 3 game and nothing comes close, not even Dark Souls. You should, without thinking of it, buy it, and play it atleast until you complete four sections and by then your opinion on the game should be well formed

EDIT: At DrTrouserPlank, although you seem extremely set in your ways, almost unwilling to alter your views at all or give the game another shot, even going so far as to try and put off potential buyers despite the fact that you've played almost nothing of the game, how far did you get? I'm not wondering why you quit, what you felt was bad, how responsive you thought the controls were, just how far in the game did you get (ie, to the first areas boss, couldn't complete the first area, stopped at the tutorial etc.) as I had an almost similar opinion until I completed the first area, had a complete grasp of the combat mechanics and the game opens up. I'm not trying to tell you you're opinion will change, it might not, but as you site "clunky controls" as one of your complaints, and the ineffectiveness of dodging, the real problem seems that you were bad at the start and quit before you managed to grasp the combat (admittedly choosing a barbarian, the most difficult starting class, was a bad choice too ) and I think if you managed to go back to it, start again and play it with a much more cautious approach that you will start enjoying it more.

EDIT 2: TL;DR

Spoiler

 Wow, this was longer than I expected. Sorry, I just got a bit carried away and I presume it will be ignored as a a result of the length so Royston, buy it without thinking right at this moment! DrTrouserPLank, how far did you get?

[DrTrouserPlank]

Didn't die in the tutorial got trhough that quickly. Got to the first stage where about 80% of my play time was spent. Controls are serviceable but the combat just feels clunky. Dodging is not worth the effort because a blocked hit costs you little energy compared to the risk of getting hit in a dodge.

The graphics are terrible I think. I'd probably have tolerated it longer if it was at least nice to look at. Combat is too dull and unvaried to keep having to replay the same section of a level over and over again.

It's a horrendously outdated game that only got the praise it did becasue the PS3 was utterly starved of anything resembling a decent RPG's at the time it was released. 

[Solid_Snake12345]

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DrTrouserPlank wrote:

Didn't die in the tutorial got trhough that quickly. Got to the first stage where about 80% of my play time was spent. Controls are serviceable but the combat just feels clunky. Dodging is not worth the effort because a blocked hit costs you little energy compared to the risk of getting hit in a dodge.

The graphics are terrible I think. I'd probably have tolerated it longer if it was at least nice to look at. Combat is too dull and unvaried to keep having to replay the same section of a level over and over again.

It's a horrendously outdated game that only got the praise it did becasue the PS3 was utterly starved of anything resembling a decent RPG's at the time it was released. 

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Did you manage to get through to the end of the boss in the level?

I'd agree with you that at the beginning the combat feels clunky as it takes time to get used to it. It's certainly not similar to Bayonetta or Ninja Gaiden which features fast quick combat, it's much methodical, relying on timing as opposed to quickly dashing from opponent to opponent. I do feel you should give it another try as it's the dodging that actually increases the pace as a very precise dodge is required to be successful but once you can dodge correctly the combat really does open up. Quite a large number of enemies also have attacks that cannot be blocked (the mindslayers in Latria, the red knight  in the first level breaks blocks with his charge, numerous bosses will completely drain your stamina after a block while also dealing a lot of damage) highlighting the importance of the ability to dodge.

The combat I supose is much more tactical than a standard action game has everything has different momentum, animations, reach and moveset so the combat variety comes through the different weapons and possible builds. I realise that's not for everybody and unfortunately if you'd been able to keep trying to play and spend a little longer to try it out you would have been able to get to the RPG-portion of the game (since levelling only becomes available after you speak to the Maiden in Black upon beating the first boss which is unfortunate). Another rather unfortunate thing is that 1-1 (the first area) also has a rather bleak and unimpressive graphics when compared to the rest of the game (world one is simply a castle and is probably the most "dull" area in the game [although I love 1-3 and 1-4's level design] with world 3 [Latria] probably being the one I'd say is the most atmospheric and highlighting the graphics the best) due to the setting and, for the most part, the enemies simply being humans.

I seriously would advise going back to play it again, as a Royal (I apologise if I got the name wrong, it's been a while since I've played it) instead of a Barbarian since you'll be able to get through the opening a lot faster and it'll be easier over all now that you have an idea where the enemies are. And as well as that there isn't much downside. If you still don't like it after winning three or four areas, nothing is lost. If you do like it, you didn't waste the money, have a new game to play and an enjoyable experience ahead of you. As you've said the tutorial takes twenty minutes and can be sprinted through when you know where to go and what to do and 1-1 will probably only take 30 minutes to run through since you've already done most of it before. The boss, fortunately, is also very easy so that will be little problem once you open the gate.

[InfiniteStates]

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DrTrouserPlank wrote:

Roll speed was fine. It was also very useful in the sense that I didn't use it because you are open to getting hit, and it's safer to just block and take the minor health damage.

The outdated checkpoint system is just as you describe it. It's a throwback to when hardware limitations meant that games had little in the way of checkpoints; although even Wonderboy in monster world had saving at Inns and wonderboy and the dragon's trap had passwords to get you back to where you left off, and that was 20 years ago.

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Roll makes you invincible briefly and gives you a chance to counter-attack. Blocking just leads to you getting staggered, hit and killed in certain circumstances.

Checkpoints make you lazy, and render failing inconsequential. Part of the draw of this game is the tension of trying to get back to your soul-loaded bloodstain without getting killed again first.

I fail to see how your comparisons to Wonderboy are relevant. Demon's Souls saves your progress after every game state change. If you turn your console off, the most you will lose is about 10 seconds progress. Plus, you can return to the Nexus 3 or 4 times per world from various checkpoints. You can also open shortcuts in the levels at varying points to make progress faster on return visits.

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DrTrouserPlank wrote:

Dying isn't fun. Even if it seems like you'd be able to tolerate it, you won't. You won't enjoy playing the same slow, tedious sections over and over only to be killed in the same spot, or by some cheap trick that is designed to be unavoidable the first time you reach it.

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 If you're dying over and over at the same point, that's your failure to learn from your mistakes - not the game's. The game is trying to kill you. It's your job to survive. It is a "role playing" game and needs to be played as such. If you were in an unfamiliar hostile environment for real, would you just run around or would you proceed cautiously, checking corners for threats and wondering why there were an awful lot of bloodstains in a particular location?

I'm not saying it's perfect, because it's not. The camera can cause issues at times when you're target locked in a confined area, but that's few and far between. The game doesn't suit people that are impatient and just want to run to the end and call it done.

@Royston: I would suggest not listening to DrTrouserPlanks negativity. Sure, not everyone likes the game - just like any other game, but if you like RPGs that are not particularly heavy on story, but that has a solid combat model you should definitely give it a try.

The game is cited as hard, but it's really not when you understand it. And it will only punish you if you rush in headlong without thinking first. It doesn't populate levels with the usual player fodder other games have made us accustomed to.

Every encounter needs to be treated carefully, and taking on multiple opponents is especially dangerous.

But the servers are still live and people are still playing. So it must have something going for it...

[DrTrouserPlank]

I played through to the phallanx this morning, and after dying it just highlights another problem with the game. Souls are stuck in boss room. Can't exit once you enter. Need a massive pile of fire-bombs to beat it. have to backtrack via one of the shortcuts a long way to get firebombs (If I'll even have enough souls when I get there.) Can't remember which one it is either. If I die again in boss room after getting them I'll probably have to go for a restock on the next spawn as well.

Timewasting at it's best. 

[Solid_Snake12345]

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DrTrouserPlank wrote:

I played through to the phallanx this morning, and after dying it just highlights another problem with the game. Souls are stuck in boss room. Can't exit once you enter. Need a massive pile of fire-bombs to beat it. have to backtrack via one of the shortcuts a long way to get firebombs (If I'll even have enough souls when I get there.) Can't remember which one it is either. If I die again in boss room after getting them I'll probably have to go for a restock on the next spawn as well.

Timewasting at it's best. 

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It's good that you're giving it a chance again. The souls being stuck in the boss room is intentional, Once youenter, you really need to be prepared for anything. You don't need firebombs to beat it however (it helps, sure but don't worry if you run out). Instead, lure as many of the smaller phallanx's off the boss as possible, making sure to attack them from behind. Try not to use the block, rolling makes you much more versatile and will allow you to kill them much easier. If I remember correctly it takes about three attacks to kill the smaller ones so keep to the edge of the room, constantly dodge to avoid the projectile spears and try to find a vulnerable one and kill it as quickly as you can. If you have any Turpentine, I highly recommend using that to take down the smaller ones. It's highly important that you don't just run up to the boss and keep attacking, that is guaranteed death. You need to attack the detached ones, killing enough so that eventually there is a vulnerable spot in the boss that you can use to easily kill him. Try checking out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSLKwfeRdTg to see a potential strategy at taking him down. If I'm honest, the player in the video isn't particularly good (in that video atleast). He's wearing the full armour so he can't dodge, attacks pretty randomally, takes a relatively long time to beat him, isn't using the weapon one handed, and, for some bizarre reason, kills an unneccessary amount of the smaller phalanxs before killing the large one. However, that is a much more "real" boss fight, one that is much more similar to that of a first time player attempting the boss and as such it's probably better to see that sort of strategy as opposed to one of the ones used in one of the many speed run videos.

Also, if you've restarted with a Royal as suggested, you magic projectile should make the boss a complete joke. If you're still using the Barbarian, the club's moveset isn't great but you will be able to do a relatively large amount of damage even without turpentine so don't panic if you run out, you can still just charge straight towards the boss. And if you lose the souls, once again, don't worry, it's no big deal since you get a thousand from killing the boss and even that is basically nothing compared to what you can get from enemies in the other areas. Finally, press Triangle to use the weapon one handed. You'll do much more damage and it'll be a perfect way to practice dodging (and honestly, do it (or sprint) all the time in the boss battle to move quickly and definitely dodge and attack once you're near one of the enemies to avoid a possible attack. Good luck and don't forget that there is no shame in looking through the forum asking for any tips or guidance about where to go, where to get good equipment, how to beat certain enemies etc.

[DrTrouserPlank]

I'm a magician now. It's easier than the barbarian at least, but I've got no spice left so my magic runs out during the boss fight. melee seems no worse than barbarian, if anything a bit easier.

I might have a look at it later. 

[InfiniteStates]

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DrTrouserPlank wrote:

Timewasting at it's best. 

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That is gaming in general, and in no way exclusive to Demon's Souls.

Plus, losing your souls is ultimately no big deal. All it costs you is time to re-farm them. But if time is your consideration this isn't the game to play as it punishes impatience.

[Solid_Snake12345]

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DrTrouserPlank wrote:

I'm a magician now. It's easier than the barbarian at least, but I've got no spice left so my magic runs out during the boss fight. melee seems no worse than barbarian, if anything a bit easier.

I might have a look at it later. 

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Excellent. The spice running out will be a temporary issue. If you wish, you can use a duplication glitch to instantly give you 99 spices and grass (I don't recommend it however as later in the game you'll have so much souls that buying max of them isn't a problem) but it is managable to succeed without them. The first option is to use melee at the start. The rapier when held two handed will deal more than enough damage to take out the phalanxes without the buff (unless you want but it'll probably be overkill) and then you can simply soul arrow the boss from a far in the unprotected areas. Alternatively you can use Souls Arrow at the start to kill as much of the enemies, while they're on him, as possible so you can then use melee afterwards to kill any remaining ones and then kill him with melee.

[DrTrouserPlank]

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Solid_Snake12345 wrote:

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DrTrouserPlank wrote:

I'm a magician now. It's easier than the barbarian at least, but I've got no spice left so my magic runs out during the boss fight. melee seems no worse than barbarian, if anything a bit easier.

I might have a look at it later. 

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Excellent. The spice running out will be a temporary issue. If you wish, you can use a duplication glitch to instantly give you 99 spices and grass (I don't recommend it however as later in the game you'll have so much souls that buying max of them isn't a problem) but it is managable to succeed without them. The first option is to use melee at the start. The rapier when held two handed will deal more than enough damage to take out the phalanxes without the buff (unless you want but it'll probably be overkill) and then you can simply soul arrow the boss from a far in the unprotected areas. Alternatively you can use Souls Arrow at the start to kill as much of the enemies, while they're on him, as possible so you can then use melee afterwards to kill any remaining ones and then kill him with melee.

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As it turned out I just ran around the room killing some of those things the protect him until there was a big gap on him and I just melle'd him. Went back to nexus via the archstone that appeared. I've got 6000-odd souls. If those aren't "banked" as such when I start a new level, am I better off spending them now to upgrade or buy spells instead of risk losing them on the next stage?