Level 3
CJ101 wrote:If you look at the cold hard facts, Ferrari should actually be bullet proof in this.
I'm surprised that they got a fine????
If they had decided to appeal it they would have won but it looks like they will just take it on the chin.
The problem I see, is the way Ferrari handled it in the first place. Everything they said, suggested team Orders, the way the drivers were after the race, suggested team orders. If Massa was happy to let Alonso past, he would have been chuffed to bits and hugged him afterwards.
As it stands, he shunned Alonso big time, but Massa is a true Sportmans, where as Alonso has just shown his lack of sportsmanship when it comes to winning races.
Everything about what Ferrari did was team orders, no matter what any of the drivers or team says, because of how they said it. Then they insult the intelligence of the Fans by saying it wasn't team orders. That is even worse, because its like they really don't care about there fans.
Level 5
Capeview wrote:
CJ101 wrote:If you look at the cold hard facts, Ferrari should actually be bullet proof in this.
I'm surprised that they got a fine????
If they had decided to appeal it they would have won but it looks like they will just take it on the chin.
The problem I see, is the way Ferrari handled it in the first place. Everything they said, suggested team Orders, the way the drivers were after the race, suggested team orders. If Massa was happy to let Alonso past, he would have been chuffed to bits and hugged him afterwards.
As it stands, he shunned Alonso big time, but Massa is a true Sportmans, where as Alonso has just shown his lack of sportsmanship when it comes to winning races.
Everything about what Ferrari did was team orders, no matter what any of the drivers or team says, because of how they said it. Then they insult the intelligence of the Fans by saying it wasn't team orders. That is even worse, because its like they really don't care about there fans.
It was ugly & cynical no doubt.
After calming down over the matter, I do not feel Ferrari are trying to insult anyones intelligence. We all know that the team were asking Felipe to move over. However Ferrari have to say otherwise because to admit to it would supply the evidence against them which is required.
Rob & Massa made this a bit more painful for Ferrari than was necessary. Rob subsequently backtracked but I suspect both will have received a talking to. Massa was almost certainly given another years contract on the basis that he supports Alonso this year (due to the points situation) so I would imagine it was no great suprise to him.
Alonso also doesn't help matters. Instead of punching the air and kissing the trophy he should simply dedicate and thank the TEAM (this includes Massa) for the win.
I sat and argued with Coulthard yesterday but now I realise he is spot on. The team orders rule is a silly one & completely unenforceable.
Was it ugly - Yes
Was it cynical - Yes
Wasi it unfair - Yes
Was it right - Yes
I can promise you there would have been no spectacle if the switch was not made. Alonso & Massa would not have raced..... there was simply too much to lose.
EDIT. Just something I would like to pick up on is where you say Massa is a true sportsman. I don't agree with this. He has clearly accepted a number 2 role for this year. Now ask yourself would Alonso do this? Would Hamilton? Would Raikkonen? Would Senna? Schumacher? Mansell? The true sportsman would rather leave the team I believe.
Level 3
CJ101 wrote:
Capeview wrote:
CJ101 wrote:If you look at the cold hard facts, Ferrari should actually be bullet proof in this.
I'm surprised that they got a fine????
If they had decided to appeal it they would have won but it looks like they will just take it on the chin.
The problem I see, is the way Ferrari handled it in the first place. Everything they said, suggested team Orders, the way the drivers were after the race, suggested team orders. If Massa was happy to let Alonso past, he would have been chuffed to bits and hugged him afterwards.
As it stands, he shunned Alonso big time, but Massa is a true Sportmans, where as Alonso has just shown his lack of sportsmanship when it comes to winning races.
Everything about what Ferrari did was team orders, no matter what any of the drivers or team says, because of how they said it. Then they insult the intelligence of the Fans by saying it wasn't team orders. That is even worse, because its like they really don't care about there fans.
It was ugly & cynical no doubt.
After calming down over the matter, I do not feel Ferrari are trying to insult anyones intelligence. We all know that the team were asking Felipe to move over. However Ferrari have to say otherwise because to admit to it would supply the evidence against them which is required.
Rob & Massa made this a bit more painful for Ferrari than was necessary. Rob subsequently backtracked but I suspect both will have received a talking to. Massa was almost certainly given another years contract on the basis that he supports Alonso this year (due to the points situation) so I would imagine it was no great suprise to him.
Alonso also doesn't help matters. Instead of punching the air and kissing the trophy he should simply dedicate and thank the TEAM (this includes Massa) for the win.
I sat and argued with Coulthard yesterday but now I realise he is spot on. The team orders rule is a silly one & completely unenforceable.
Was it ugly - Yes
Was it cynical - Yes
Wasi it unfair - Yes
Was it right - Yes
I can promise you there would have been no spectacle if the switch was not made. Alonso & Massa would not have raced..... there was simply too much to lose.
EDIT. Just something I would like to pick up on is where you say Massa is a true sportsman. I don't agree with this. He has clearly accepted a number 2 role for this year. Now ask yourself would Alonso do this? Would Hamilton? Would Raikkonen? Would Senna? Schumacher? Mansell? The true sportsman would rather leave the team I believe.
What you have to ask yourself, is would any of those do what Massa did and be diplomatic about what happened, without throwing his toys out of the Pram, much like Alonso would?
Yes, he could leave the team, but would that be a true Sportsman, or would he then be called a baby because he can't take what is thrown at him.
What Massa now needs to do, is prove he is better than Alonso on the track, which he has done several times in the past. Then we'll really see what Ferrari think of Massa and how Alonso will react if he doesn't get his way.
Out of all those names you have given, Alonso is probably the biggest baby of them all.
Level 5
Capeview wrote:
What you have to ask yourself, is would any of those do what Massa did and be diplomatic about what happened, without throwing his toys out of the Pram, much like Alonso would?
Yes, he could leave the team, but would that be a true Sportsman, or would he then be called a baby because he can't take what is thrown at him.
What Massa now needs to do, is prove he is better than Alonso on the track, which he has done several times in the past. Then we'll really see what Ferrari think of Massa and how Alonso will react if he doesn't get his way.
Out of all those names you have given, Alonso is probably the biggest baby of them all.
That's my point none of them would do what Massa did. They simply don't have that mentality. They are winners and would not yield to a team mate.
Yes Massa would be a true sportsman if he left the team next year rather than be a number 2 driver.
The future may prove me wrong but I'm sorry Massa will always be a plucky loser. Alonso on the other hand is a nasty, petulant, selfish, vindictive, unremorseful, single minded mutt. This makes him a winner and a champion. If you look at other champions you will more often than not find these traits.
Hamilton has it aswell. Earlier this year in one of the wet races he radioed something like "whose idea was it to go on these tyre's, that was a terrible idea". He's looking to personally blame somebody. We often hear Hamilton ***** his team during a race. This is something Mansell did also. Lewis hides it well under a plesant veneer but he has some of those Alonso / champion traits no doubt. Remeber his moody petulance on the podium when Button dared to have a crack at him in Turkey (I think??).
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