General Discussion

[ProjectVRD]

I simply mentioned the figure of what is estimated in the black hole, but you tried to argue otherwise with people one benefits being a bigger problem for money going missing. I only read the first line of your last reply, at a glance the rest looks... unsubstantiated, as far as benefits equating $21tn goes. I'll read when you find a link that estimates $21tn is spent on benefits.

[InfiniteStates]

^ You were the one who mentioned trillions...maybe when you are talking about this country, we might be fussed. The US is a much bigger country than this one. I doubt this country has lost any amount of $ from taxes...

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Mikal_Drey wrote:

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ProjectVRD wrote:

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Mikal_Drey wrote:

Hey hey

There isnt much difference between the rich sheltering money from the taxman than the poor sheltering money from the taxman. Its just a matter of perspective. In fact the poor generally take more out than they put in so where is the fairness in that ?

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The difference is the poor in the western nations are not hiding the equivalent of the USA's and Japans total economic output for an entire year.

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You can make the figures dance and play pretty tunes all night but the perspective is skewed.  

How much are "the poor" leaching out the system ? How much are the rich contributing ?  There are people out there who pay more in tax per year than I earn. 

Those "rich elitists" also contribute shedloads to charities (yes I know there tax implications) and those charities lobbied the gov recently to insure that the charitable contribution loopholes were kept because of the amount of good it does. 

There is so much more important thing in the world than constantly pigeonholing the "rich"as the ones to blame for the economic situation.  Money leaks out the government coffers like the proverbial in the proverbial but we consistently ignore whats right in front of our eyes.

THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN.

We all do it. Whilst that is a sweeping generalization. If someone offered you a way to pay less tax I'm pretty sure you would jump at it.   When the system is taking 50/60% of your earnings than you fight back.  

Media politics is breaking this country.  Everyone is on the take, even those in charge.

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Well said

Also, benefit users who take cash in hand work are on the double take - both from the government and for the work they are doing. Tax dodgers are just minimising how much the governent takes (note: TAKES not GIVES) from them, which is the lesser evil IMO. Especially when they can see what wall their taxes are being peed up.

[ProjectVRD]

Hmmm. Interesting way to think Infinite, I would be inclined to think that there are people residing in the UK who are avoiding taxes but ofcourse without having access to the records I couldn't say for sure. But to think the UK is not missing any tax payments is a little niaive though, and I know I mentioned trillions and I never once said otherwise.

Still waiting for sources that show that benefits amount to anything even near $21tn of taxable money. Somehow I don't think we ever see such a document or article unless you know otherwise?

Besides, what wall is this you speak of? Could it be the banks who help these tax dodgers dodge tax, now that is an interesting relationship and I am glad your pointed it out. To think that so much money is missing from the economic engine, transfered out in animosity by banks, at a time where banks claim they may never get the money back so tax payers have to give them enormous amounts of money only for what we may or not assume is partially being taken by the same tax dodgers in the form of bonuses and dividends as well money 'owed' to them.

Don't you just love the rich elite?

[fenian]

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InfiniteStates wrote:
Until someone tallies up how much cash-in-hand work is done while claiming benefits, we'll never know, but I suspect you might be surprised... Of course, I have no grounds for that suspicion other than people I know or live near.

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so why make a wide sweeping statement about people on benefit at all if you cant back it up? Youre the one that complains and derails threads when others make statements about country drivers despite the fact that newspapers report country drivers crash more than city drivers every bank holiday weekend.

[fenian]

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ProjectVRD wrote:

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fenian wrote:
why would g20 declare war on their own banks?

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Declare war on the nations that allow their own banks to not disclose information necessary for the economic machine to function to work properly as opposed to the banks themselves. End tax havens and it is one step closer to ending tax evasion on this level, admittedly it wouldn't end tax evasion from existing.

These are desperate times, every nation from USA to UK to Russia and China need their taxes to make the books balance out.

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Youre missing my point, the rich run america and the UK, so why would they attack themselves?

you're talking as if the same rules that apply to normal people apply to the rich when they dont. The rich bank roll the politicians, so why would they attack the people that are paying them?

Politicians dont care if their country is in debt, they will at most be in power for 4 - 10 years, and without someone with money behind them they wont get into power, and they wont end up in a high paying job after they leave power, they dont care, they are happy to get bank rolled and let ordinary people pick up as much as the debt as they can load onto them.

Its naive to think otherwise.

[Mikal_Drey]

let me reiterate.

I have not stated that benefit fraud equates to trillions.

let me reiterate.

Rich people are avoiding tax - true
Poor people are avoiding tax - true
Poor people are stealing tax money - true
Rich people pay more tax than others in an unfair system - true

just because they are sheltering trillions of dollars. pounds, yen, euros, whatever... on a worldwide scale tax is being evaded.

just because the media will spin against the rich does not mean that there isn't a black hole dropping out the bottom. Unfortunately the gov find it hard to admit that the problem is systemic. What you also need to realize is that these loopholes and tax schemes that exist FOR EVERYONE have been setup by the government specifically as incentives so that a little bit of evil is serving a greater good.

*end of















*sponsored by larasaider

[emw80]

I cant remember who said this but...

When a man makes a million bucks profit, you know many people got screwed over.

When a man make a billion bucks profit, you know whole nations got screwed over.

I believe there's a lot of credibility too that, and so to me it's no surprise to see those with that kind of money also using the tax loop holes in the system to avoid paying much back too the economy/nation where they got it from.

As for the tax loop holes themselves, i think many of us here could agree they're not just there because the men and women who wrote the laws were short sighted, but rather they put them there for the very reason we're discussing, so those in the know can continue to increase wealth, and advance their power and influence.

It could also be put that 'where there's a will there's a way' and I'm sure this will be the case for some of them, because we all know you could put many of the worlds greatest minds together too write these laws and regulations etc and someone else will come along and poke holes in it, such is life.

Personally, I believe those tax loop holes were deliberately put there, perhaps the reason why we're hearing so much about this kind of things is due to the increasing amount of people using the loop holes these days.

On a side note -

As for the mention of charities by someone else, I'd like to know how the richest nations can donate s much money over all these decades and yet we still see little progress in the nations we're donating too.

Is it that the nations we're donating too have to pay the likes of the IMF and World Bank back, so the donations are simply going to them instead?

It will work for the nations we're donating too just the same as it does for us in the rich western nations, our tax contributions are mostly going to the central banks to pay off the interest on the money the governments borrow from them, hence the failing infrastructure, hospitals and schools etc.

[ProjectVRD]

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fenian wrote:

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ProjectVRD wrote:

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fenian wrote:
why would g20 declare war on their own banks?

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Declare war on the nations that allow their own banks to not disclose information necessary for the economic machine to function to work properly as opposed to the banks themselves. End tax havens and it is one step closer to ending tax evasion on this level, admittedly it wouldn't end tax evasion from existing.

These are desperate times, every nation from USA to UK to Russia and China need their taxes to make the books balance out.

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Youre missing my point, the rich run america and the UK, so why would they attack themselves?

you're talking as if the same rules that apply to normal people apply to the rich when they dont. The rich bank roll the politicians, so why would they attack the people that are paying them?

Politicians dont care if their country is in debt, they will at most be in power for 4 - 10 years, and without someone with money behind them they wont get into power, and they wont end up in a high paying job after they leave power, they dont care, they are happy to get bank rolled and let ordinary people pick up as much as the debt as they can load onto them.

Its naive to think otherwise.

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Good point. But what if me and you declared war on them. Together. Forever. Calvin Klien.

[InfiniteStates]

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ProjectVRD wrote:
Hmmm. Interesting way to think Infinite, I would be inclined to think that there are people residing in the UK who are avoiding taxes but ofcourse without having access to the records I couldn't say for sure. But to think the UK is not missing any tax payments is a little niaive though, and I know I mentioned trillions and I never once said otherwise.

Still waiting for sources that show that benefits amount to anything even near $21tn of taxable money. Somehow I don't think we ever see such a document or article unless you know otherwise?

Besides, what wall is this you speak of? Could it be the banks who help these tax dodgers dodge tax, now that is an interesting relationship and I am glad your pointed it out. To think that so much money is missing from the economic engine, transfered out in animosity by banks, at a time where banks claim they may never get the money back so tax payers have to give them enormous amounts of money only for what we may or not assume is partially being taken by the same tax dodgers in the form of bonuses and dividends as well money 'owed' to them.

Don't you just love the rich elite?

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For the love of... At what point did I say the UK was devoid of tax dodgers?

Show me figures for the amount of tax dodged in the UK. I don't care about the figure cited, in dollars, be it for the US or global. As I said - the US is an enormous market. Their tax dodging and benefit fraud is bound to be large.

But I don't (directly) pay taxes in dollars. Benefits are not paid in dollars. I couldn't give a flying monkey's butt cheek about $21tn in missing tax. Demand all the evidence you want, be as snide as you want at words you have put in my mouth, but I still maintain that I would rather live in a country full of people dodging £30k's worth of tax every year than people sponging £30k to watch Sky and fail to raise their children.

P.S: the "wall" I speak of is the benefit culture we have cultivated. Watching the government take your money while you struggle to make ends meet and allow others to not even bother trying. If I could afford a tax haven, I sure as hell would.

[Mikal_Drey]

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InfiniteStates wrote:.I f I could afford a tax haven, I sure as hell would.

I notice that you have games for the guyphone available for purchase.

(rhetorical)

Do you pay tax on the income you receive from them or do you sell them via a small business and claim the tax back or use the multitude of tax loopholes to pay no tax whatsoever on the income ?

I've never sold anything using places like itunes but I would assume that they leave the responsibility of declaring the taxes to you. ebay is another example where there is a clear income stream and tax is being "dodged" and benefits being "defrauded"