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22 Feb 2010
By NekedFaerie

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Other OS removed in next update?

158 Replies 1,197 Views Created 22-02-2010
Why should $ony remove that option coz 1% if the PS3 owners found a hack? GROW UP $ONY!!! The PS3 still cant play backups and I guess it never will. The Wii and xbox360 can already play backups and their sales haven't dropped so why are you so worried about a handful of PS3 owners? I say keep the OtherOS feature and IF they do find a way to play backups you will just get more sales so wont it be a good thing? I know a heap of people that don't own a PS3 and are waiting for backups to be played on it then they will all buy one. Think of all those sales you will get. I keep telling people the PS3 is the best console out of the 3 but its still too high priced and it cant play backups so its not the most sort out console. If $ony want to make the PS3 the number one console then I say leave the hackers do their thing and let a hole get through so it can play backups and you will see a huge sales increase. Dont forget the OtherOS is for the old phat consoles so anyone buying a new console cant even use that feature so its not really a threat is it? Why punish all of us for 1 persons hacking attempt? I very highly doubt all of us will be hacking our PS3's. I know I wont be. I do use Linux on it, so its a very useful feature to keep. There will be huge complaints if you remove it and a lot of people will NOT be updating their consoles so you will be loosing a lot of money from PSN. I know I wont be updating if that happens so I wont be buying anything from PSN if it comes down to loosing features. If $ony want to sell more consoles they are doing it all wrong.
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How did this come to be a piracy debate? I am not the one that brought up piracy but someone keeps going on about it.

As for mod chips, think about it. I brought the console so its mine and I can do what I like with it. If I want to install a modchip then I can and whos going to tell me what I can and cant do to my console? It's mine, I paid for it I will do what I like with it. Will Sony or Microsoft sue me if I install a modchip in it? WIll they sue me if I shove an axe through it? Whats the difference? It's my hardware so I will do what I like with it.

If I want to backup a game then I will. I brought the game so its my game and I will do what I want with it.
If I want to play backups on it then I will. If I own the original then I can have a backup of it. (Well if the console lets me play backups then I can. Speaking of the PS3 it doesn't so I don't have any backups of PS3 games, all originals.)

About BlueRay, they can already be copied via the PS3 using PS3SAK. That was released the 2nd week after the launch of the console so its a very old program now and it does work. The only flaw with that is there is no way to play the backup. Well, you cant play backup games but you can play backup blueray movies.
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NekedFaerie wrote:
How did this come to be a piracy debate? I am not the one that brought up piracy but someone keeps going on about it.


If I want to backup a game then I will. I brought the game so its my game and I will do what I want with it.


Not sure how it became a piracy debate... the topic itself is a pretty murky one, considering almost everyone uses mp3s, and I bet not always purchased them online either... ;) ... there is also the fact that you have to take into account Australia Law vs NZ Law (for those of use here) vs American law, given that the US is the centre of the universe and all information.

 

In NZ (at least) Music and software are a little different... Music, no you cannot copy even for personal 'backup'... owning the disc does not give you the 'right' because you own it... That right belongs solely to the copyright holder.. You may well own the disc, but they own the content.... the US is a bit murkier because of the whole 'Fair Use' doctrine... Aus, I don't actually know.

 

Software however is slightly different.... The legality of copying for legal use depends on the licensing of that software... If you have purchased 5 licences of a piece of software, and the fineprint says you can copy it for that use, then fine...  I'm not sure owning a PS3 game fits under that same criteria, even for personal use...

 

However, when it comes to 'sharing', whether it be giving to friends, or selling for personal gain, it is a simple cut and dry NO... you can't lend out copies of games, music, movies, whatever, to friends. You certainly can't sell them.

 

I was witness at my old job, where their licensing allowed them to distribute certain software (as long as all relevant information was printed in colour to the discs, t's are crossed and i's dotted) for student use... One individual decided he could make some money by copying his copy and auctioning the copies on Trade Me.... suffice to say the Institution and Trade Me took that very seriously.. ;)

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NekedFaerie wrote:
How did this come to be a piracy debate? I am not the one that brought up piracy but someone keeps going on about it.

As for mod chips, think about it. I brought the console so its mine and I can do what I like with it. If I want to install a modchip then I can and whos going to tell me what I can and cant do to my console? It's mine, I paid for it I will do what I like with it. Will Sony or Microsoft sue me if I install a modchip in it? WIll they sue me if I shove an axe through it? Whats the difference? It's my hardware so I will do what I like with it.

If I want to backup a game then I will. I brought the game so its my game and I will do what I want with it.
If I want to play backups on it then I will. If I own the original then I can have a backup of it. (Well if the console lets me play backups then I can. Speaking of the PS3 it doesn't so I don't have any backups of PS3 games, all originals.)

About BlueRay, they can already be copied via the PS3 using PS3SAK. That was released the 2nd week after the launch of the console so its a very old program now and it does work. The only flaw with that is there is no way to play the backup. Well, you cant play backup games but you can play backup blueray movies.

 

Mate, it's not a debate.  The Copyright is pretty clear on it being illegal to make backups of games. Because games have other content in them like music and video which is often also subject to copyright, the Act makes no provision for you to make copies, for any purpose, backup or otherwise.

 

And as for the mod chips, it is legal to buy them and use them, but it's illegal to sell or distribute them, particularly if they are used to circumvent copy protection measures.  You said you worked for a company that sold them and installed them.  Might be time to check the Act on that front as well.

 

I don't want to bang on any more about this but really you want to check out the difference between copyright on computer software, music and movies vs copyright on games.  You seem to be able to find links about rumours on features being removed on consoles, extend that ability a bit further to research the legality of making backups and modding consoles.

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QUOTE :

1) If you read the PS3 manual it states Design and specifications are subject to change without notice.

    So just as they took away backwards compatibility, they are well within their rights to remove Linux.

    Sony would also argue that the removal of another OS is a piracy issue.......they win that one.

2) As above, also stated in the manuals regarding firmware updates Sony Computer Entertainment is not liable for any loss of data........they win that one also.

3) See #1..........yep they win that one.

4) Most games have the latest firmware (at there time of release) installed on the disc, as soon as the disc is booted up, it can't be played unless the firmware is installed.

 

As i've tried to explain to other peeps on the forums with various complaints.............

 

Big corporations like Sony spend millions of $$$ on hiring lawyers to write the "terms and conditions" that free them from pretty much any liability pertaining to there products and protect themselves from any possibility of legal proceedings...........thats why there is line after line of "small print" in the T&C's 

 

In this case they have every right to make the necessary changes to protect there products from piracy !!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

1]The design & specification reserved rights relate to the consoles hardware,not software,that's a separate issue.

BC was remove from the PS3 with a new console design [that's what those rights were reserving,to still be able to call it a PS3 even though BC had been removed],not a crippling of it by a software update.

 

2]When Sony says it is not liable for any loss of data,that covers it for a normal functioning unit,as was first purchased.

As Linux or any other second OS was not pre installed on the PS3 at time of purchase,Sony could not be held responsible if data was lost while using the second OS on the PS3,fair enough.

BUT,if Sony suddenly removes the ability to RUN this second OS and data is lost,then Sony will be liable.

Why?,because it could be shown in court that that was the sole intent of the system update to deny service.

Under consumer law they are not allowed to do this.

 

If Sony were to use the known attempt of cracking it's system code using Linux as a reason for removing second OS usage,it could still be argued that removing the ability to use other operating systems apart from Linux on the PS3 is a denial of service that Sony enter into with the consoles purchaser at the time of sale.

Personally I couldn't care less if it got crippled as I have never installed a second OS on my original PS3.

But I do can about consumer rights,the consumer is under a constant barrage of corporate manoeuvring to move the goal posts so that they are not held responsible for their actions.

You have to take a stand against it.

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Solution - Dont update.

 

Havnt said that, I use my old PS3 for only one purpose, a webserver.

 

Otherwise why not just buy a 200$ laptop and install linux on it, its far

easier to install and manage applications on a linux OS that isnt a PPC

architecture.

Not to mention, not as much power consumption.

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To all that didn't believe me, do you now? $ony have come out and said OtherOS is getting removed in 2 days. BA$TARD$!!!
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May I address the class? You're opinions make for disturbing reading. The number of people who want to keep OtherOS support appears to be small, but that's mostly bourne out of ignorance. Linux Sucks? Please! The most alarming thing is how many of you are prepared to sit back and take it, and once you've finished the first helping, why, I do believe that you will ask for seconds.

 

The irony is that everyone of us has seen countless movies about dystopian futures, yet scarily I see it here, in the majority of you posting in this thread. Indoctrinated into the cult of intellectual property rights. Most of you don't even know it. God didn't die he was simply replaced by mega-corportaions, who no longer issue commandments from the top of mountains, but slip them into release notes and leaked rumours on public forums.

FatMasarati is even prepared to brick up his windows to aid his masters in keeping their property safe. No, not his property, he gives the corporation it's power through donations of wealth ($$) in return for license agreements which favour the corporation.

 

Will Sony take away our OtherOS? Yes. Will we do anything about it? No. Will it matter? Does anything?

 

This isn't a movie about a dystopian future, and I'm not the protagonist. I'm going to eat my ***** sandwhich just like the rest of you, and when I'm done, I'll ask for seconds.

 

Just do as you're told!

 

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Notice: Cross post - Sorry, I didn't see this thread first.

----

 

I am from a hacker community - not necessarily the bad side that everyone seems to be afraid of.

I am a person who got a new phone, promptly downloaded the firmware on it and customized it well beyond what the original design and specifications for customization were.

I code in several different languages and make software, and hardware tools do my bidding daily.

However, I do not partake in acts that would breach any agreement I have made with anyone (for example, hacking Sony firmware or hardware) or would be illegal.

-

Now, having said that.

I'm of the firm belief that this firmware release from Sony may run foul of the ACCC and the Australian Trade Practices Act.

The Australian Trade Practices Act states

  • The goods must be of merchantable quality. That is, they must meet a basic level of quality and performance, taking into account their price and description. They also should be free from defects that were not obvious to you at the time of purchase.
  • The goods must be fit for their purpose. That is, they should do what they are supposed to do and be suitable for any purpose that you might have made known to the supplier.
  • The goods must match the description you were given or the sample you chose from. For example, any carpet laid must be the same quality and colour as the sample you chose from.
  • You must receive clear title to the goods, including goods bought at auction. In other words, you can expect to own the goods outright and any restriction on ownership should be explained to you beforehand.


http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/815360

The act makes a very good analogy using carpet. I however propose one more applicable to Sony and this update.

Sony have sold me a Playstation 3 unit capable of being used with the OtherOS feature - legitimately half the reason I purchased such an expensive device. Sony are now removing that feature, decreasing my purchase value by half.

This is akin to selling me a table with 4 legs, and then coming into my house some time later to remove 2 of them.

Yes, they give me the ability to ignore this update, but doing so will break OTHER features of my system - that I have paid for.

So that's a choice of which two legs would I like Sony to remove.

I'm in the process of writing a letter to Sony and the ACCC regarding this news - it's not hard to see that Sony are quite probably in breach of these laws as the device I purchased is clearly labeled and sold for uses that will be disabled after this update.

 

--

 

Further based on what I've read here - the box was clearly marked as being able to run other operating systems, that was clearly a factor in my decision to purchase the device, if it was marked "We may decide to remove this feature at a later date" I wouldn't have made this purchase.

This modification DOES change the suitability of the device for a purpose and does put it at odds with the material it was marketed with.

 

--

 

Edit: Official source - http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/03/28/ps3-firmware-v3-21-update/

 

Also note, I do not believe format shifting (transfering from CD to MP3) to be legal, I also suspect that recording from TV and Radio however tollerated or unenforced is not legal

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Fremean wrote:

Notice: Cross post - Sorry, I didn't see this thread first.

----

 

I am from a hacker community - not necessarily the bad side that everyone seems to be afraid of.

I am a person who got a new phone, promptly downloaded the firmware on it and customized it well beyond what the original design and specifications for customization were.

I code in several different languages and make software, and hardware tools do my bidding daily.

However, I do not partake in acts that would breach any agreement I have made with anyone (for example, hacking Sony firmware or hardware) or would be illegal.

-

Now, having said that.

I'm of the firm belief that this firmware release from Sony may run foul of the ACCC and the Australian Trade Practices Act.

The Australian Trade Practices Act states

  • The goods must be of merchantable quality. That is, they must meet a basic level of quality and performance, taking into account their price and description. They also should be free from defects that were not obvious to you at the time of purchase.
  • The goods must be fit for their purpose. That is, they should do what they are supposed to do and be suitable for any purpose that you might have made known to the supplier.
  • The goods must match the description you were given or the sample you chose from. For example, any carpet laid must be the same quality and colour as the sample you chose from.
  • You must receive clear title to the goods, including goods bought at auction. In other words, you can expect to own the goods outright and any restriction on ownership should be explained to you beforehand.


http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/815360

The act makes a very good analogy using carpet. I however propose one more applicable to Sony and this update.

Sony have sold me a Playstation 3 unit capable of being used with the OtherOS feature - legitimately half the reason I purchased such an expensive device. Sony are now removing that feature, decreasing my purchase value by half.

This is akin to selling me a table with 4 legs, and then coming into my house some time later to remove 2 of them.

Yes, they give me the ability to ignore this update, but doing so will break OTHER features of my system - that I have paid for.

So that's a choice of which two legs would I like Sony to remove.

I'm in the process of writing a letter to Sony and the ACCC regarding this news - it's not hard to see that Sony are quite probably in breach of these laws as the device I purchased is clearly labeled and sold for uses that will be disabled after this update.

 

--

 

Further based on what I've read here - the box was clearly marked as being able to run other operating systems, that was clearly a factor in my decision to purchase the device, if it was marked "We may decide to remove this feature at a later date" I wouldn't have made this purchase.

This modification DOES change the suitability of the device for a purpose and does put it at odds with the material it was marketed with.

 

--

 

Edit: Official source - http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/03/28/ps3-firmware-v3-21-update/

 

Also note, I do not believe format shifting (transfering from CD to MP3) to be legal, I also suspect that recording from TV and Radio however tollerated or unenforced is not legal


 

The thing is... the TOS you agree to when you access PSN and again when you download and install a Firmware Update give Sony permission to modify their software as much as they please.

 

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Which does not imply that I gave them permission to remove a core feature which was clearly used in the marketing and valuing of the original device.

 

The feature may have been handled, in some way or entirely by software but it was marketed ON THE BOX to a target market that was interested in laying down $700 to use that feature.

 

The ACCC tends to agree with me in that respect, they're a little gray on firmware updates but they're not at all fond of features that were used to increase the perceived value of the device through marketing being removed. They might not if it wasn't written as a feature on the box but it is.

 

To satisfy them I must pen a letter to Sony and wait a reasonable amount of time for a reply, then I can contact my local office of fair trading.

 

In this country - TOS necessarily doesn't trump law and rights, especially when the likes of TOS are presented well after sale and ownership has changed hands, also especially when there is no signatures involved.

 

I put to you - how long till they remove other features for security?

 

The built in browser? How often does IE, Firefox, etc suffer a security exploit, surely that's an attack vector (hell it was one of the original ways to JailBreak the iPhone)

 

The network streaming? Sure, it's secure lol, so was OpenSSH - one of the best vetted secure protocols on earth.

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As said in other post... somewhere.

 

 

 


Fremean wrote:

Which does not imply that I gave them permission to remove a core feature which was clearly used in the marketing and valuing of the original device.

 


 

 

The capbilities on the box were all there in the software when you bought the product.

And you do actually agree to them removing features, and that is when you update the software.

 

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Fremean wrote:

Which does not imply that I gave them permission to remove a core feature which was clearly used in the marketing and valuing of the original device.

 

The feature may have been handled, in some way or entirely by software but it was marketed ON THE BOX to a target market that was interested in laying down $700 to use that feature.

 

The ACCC tends to agree with me in that respect, they're a little gray on firmware updates but they're not at all fond of features that were used to increase the perceived value of the device through marketing being removed. They might not if it wasn't written as a feature on the box but it is.

 

To satisfy them I must pen a letter to Sony and wait a reasonable amount of time for a reply, then I can contact my local office of fair trading.

 

In this country - TOS necessarily doesn't trump law and rights, especially when the likes of TOS are presented well after sale and ownership has changed hands, also especially when there is no signatures involved.

 

I put to you - how long till they remove other features for security?

 

The built in browser? How often does IE, Firefox, etc suffer a security exploit, surely that's an attack vector (hell it was one of the original ways to JailBreak the iPhone)

 

The network streaming? Sure, it's secure lol, so was OpenSSH - one of the best vetted secure protocols on earth.


 

 

Hey, I support your cause. Don't be discouraged by these people who do not know what you are talking about. Sony cannot just remove the features from already sold product. It is illegal and against the Trade Practices Act. If these people don't realise this simple fact, I would expect them to be sucked in every single time when businesses take advantage of them.

 

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Oh noes, corporations control my life!!!

 

Well, you smart people, they control yours too. Where do you buy your groceries? Where do you buy your fuel? Who provides you with internet? Who manufactures your fridge? Who built your house?

 

 

Unless you're living in the middle of freakin' nowhere and create everything you need by yourself, corporations will rule your life. Get used to it, as it's not going to change any time soon.

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GTR34mh wrote:

Oh noes, corporations control my life!!!

 

Well, you smart people, they control yours too. Where do you buy your groceries? Where do you buy your fuel? Who provides you with internet? Who manufactures your fridge? Who built your house?

 

 

Unless you're living in the middle of freakin' nowhere and create everything you need by yourself, corporations will rule your life. Get used to it, as it's not going to change any time soon.


 

 

So you just give up? Are you empolyed by Sony or something? There are industry watchdogs and government agencies like ACCC that would protect your rights as a consumer without you personally sueing them. Why are you so afraid to raise your voice? We didn't do anything wrong. It's Sony who are breaking the State and Federal law if they remove the features.

 

I could grow my own vegetables. I could make fuel out of canola. I could even build my own ***** house! Or I could just go down the store and buy their products if it's cheaper or requires less effort. What's your point?

 

Corporations don't rule your life. You rule your life. I don't remember corporations going around and kill anyone just because you don't buy their product. That's just wrong.

 

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DamageY wrote:

 


GTR34mh wrote:

Oh noes, corporations control my life!!!

 

Well, you smart people, they control yours too. Where do you buy your groceries? Where do you buy your fuel? Who provides you with internet? Who manufactures your fridge? Who built your house?

 

 

Unless you're living in the middle of freakin' nowhere and create everything you need by yourself, corporations will rule your life. Get used to it, as it's not going to change any time soon.


 

 

So you just give up? Are you empolyed by Sony or something? There are industry watchdogs and government agencies like ACCC that would protect your rights as a consumer without you personally sueing them. Why are you so afraid to raise your voice? We didn't do anything wrong. It's Sony who are breaking the State and Federal law if they remove the features.

 

I could grow my own vegetables. I could make fuel out of canola. I could even build my own ***** house! Or I could just go down the store and buy their products if it's cheaper or requires less effort. What's your point?

 

Corporations don't rule your life. You rule your life. I don't remember corporations going around and kill anyone just because you don't buy their product. That's just wrong.

 


 

 

Think whatyou want, but there are corporations that you simply can not avoid.

 

Also, I'm not trying to fight any corporations. Where's the point in that? They offer services that would have been unimaginable 50 years ago. Also, there's no need to raise my voice if I'm smart and know what I'm buying, accepting all the ups and downs that come with the product. Nothing will be perfect, and these things happen. LEarn from your mistakes and buy something truly fit for your job next time. Don't try buy a jack of all trades.

 


kiwiatlarge wrote:

So who are you guys going to hold accountable? ... seeing as you are presumably quoting Australian Laws and Acts, I would assume you'll be taking your civil law actions against Sony Australia? Better book those plane tickets to Japan instead, because like Y2010K this is a global issue...


 

And in the year 2010000....

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My opinion on this is divided.  As I've said in the other thread, I use the Other OS feature on occasion, but I don't consider the feature a "primary" function of the console, nor was it a selling point for me when I purchased the PS3, and find it difficult to understand why anyone else would have been sold on it as a feature alone.

 

Having said that, here's a hypothetical (suspend your belief and indulge me):

 

If Sony came out and said, "We're removing the Other OS feature because we have found it gives more workable RAM for games, meaning that we can produce better games for the console".  What would the reaction be from consumers then?

 

I know it's not the reason, but I'm interested in the responses from the alleged 1%.

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DamageY wrote:

 


Fremean wrote:

Which does not imply that I gave them permission to remove a core feature which was clearly used in the marketing and valuing of the original device.

 

The feature may have been handled, in some way or entirely by software but it was marketed ON THE BOX to a target market that was interested in laying down $700 to use that feature.

 

The ACCC tends to agree with me in that respect, they're a little gray on firmware updates but they're not at all fond of features that were used to increase the perceived value of the device through marketing being removed. They might not if it wasn't written as a feature on the box but it is.

 

To satisfy them I must pen a letter to Sony and wait a reasonable amount of time for a reply, then I can contact my local office of fair trading.

 

In this country - TOS necessarily doesn't trump law and rights, especially when the likes of TOS are presented well after sale and ownership has changed hands, also especially when there is no signatures involved.

 

I put to you - how long till they remove other features for security?

 

The built in browser? How often does IE, Firefox, etc suffer a security exploit, surely that's an attack vector (hell it was one of the original ways to JailBreak the iPhone)

 

The network streaming? Sure, it's secure lol, so was OpenSSH - one of the best vetted secure protocols on earth.


 

 

Hey, I support your cause. Don't be discouraged by these people who do not know what you are talking about. Sony cannot just remove the features from already sold product. It is illegal and against the Trade Practices Act. If these people don't realise this simple fact, I would expect them to be sucked in every single time when businesses take advantage of them.

 


Technicaly correct except Im sure I recall seein somewhere in the fine print a disclaimer which basically states that the 'product specs may be changed at any time' which nicely sidesteps them around that ;)

 

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tjohn323

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tjohn323
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TuxInvader wrote:

May I address the class? You're opinions make for disturbing reading. The number of people who want to keep OtherOS support appears to be small, but that's mostly bourne out of ignorance. Linux Sucks?

 


 

 

What are you basing that on.

 

Particullary directed at your last statement.

Its very different sure if you are used to Windows or OSX

but fact remains its faster than both, more stable and has a massive

level of community support

(which beats corporate support hands down).

 

If you mean it sucks for games then sure but thats not why

people use linux

 

EDIT: LMAO @ Silver and Kudos accordingly :D

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kiwiatlarge

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kiwiatlarge
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The lolcats told me this thread bump would happen.... :Reindeer:

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Lythinari

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Personal opinion windows actually sucks more than linux/os x.

Not that I care for the OS to be removed.

 

Easy to lock up the operating system and bsod, especially if you are modding programs.

No case sensitive naming convention

No pre-installed iso mounting

No encryption(may have changed in 7)

Only recently added pre-installed back-up utility

User permission only for simple users.

File and Folder permissions limited

Crummy Help Results

Crummy Search Results

Difficult interface for doing advanced tasks(even more so with vista and seven)

 

Having said that, I went from windows to *nix and then onto OS X.

The only real advantage of using windows is that there is more software available to install on it.

If you wanted software to operate based on components in your computer, it was far easier to work on in linux than a windows system.

 

Conclusion, if you're a simple user(web browsing, email, msn, videos etc) why would you even consider using a linux operating system?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Re: Other OS removed in next update?

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