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25 Feb 2009
By FixBeat

FixBeat

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what's the truth about bluray being neglected cuz of 360s dvd?

36 Replies 1,375 Views Created 25-02-2009

i've seen this rumour so many hundreds of time on the internet, so really hoped someone in the know could clarify on here for me/ps3 owners.

 

the xbox360 directly competes with the ps3.  the ps3 has bluray drives and the 360 has dvd drives.

 

bluray discs can hold 6-10 times more data than a dvd (10 times more than single layered dvd).

 

the creator of metal gear solid 4 said in CVG that if it wasn't on bluray, it'd have taken 4 DVDs to fit the game on.

 

now look at the small size of Grand Theft Auto 4 in comparison with the best Playstation 2 title Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas.  the game is a smaller game in every respect to the playstation 2 game, apart from some technical aspects obviously.  in other words, it could have been a game the size of San Andreas with the detail of GTA4.

 

what stopped Rockstar making GTA4 bigger?  maybe the extra money deals they had with Microsoft, meant they were restricted to just using the capability of one DVD, as if it was released on PS3 on one disc, but say 2 discs for the 360, that would look as if the 360 has a lesser version, when Microsoft were paying the extra money.

 

so did Microsoft choosing DVD and releasing the 360 before PS3 meaning they have more customers (at the moment) mean developers are going to be stuck with that for the forseeable future?  is it only ps3 exclusives which are going to be using the extra capacity?

 

why don't sony just say 'oi developers, stop ignoring our rather amazing disc format and use them properly' 

 

is killzone 2 possible with just one dvd?  if not, like MGS4, sony should be PRESSING these facts to the public!  not only do the discs load quicker than dvds, but they mean more on one disc, saving you know, the environment, cost, etc...

 

either that, or really putting games on a bluray disc that fit on a dvd, is abit of a waste is it not?  also surely making costs for the industry higher for no reason?

 

or are ps3 games ALREADY using the extra space when porting games from the 360?  if so, again, sony should be making this known!!

 

 

------------

 

so what are your thoughts on this?  anybody know any FACTS about it?  please no more rumours, me being bored of rumours is what sparked me into writing this huuuuuge post hehe.

 

if you are going to say something as a fact, please provide a link for them.  i don't say anything above is fact, if you know something i've said above is wrong, please do say so - but give me some links to back yo fine selves up.

 

cheers girls and guys!

 

any sony insiders reading?  please reply!  8-) 

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04
/16

trubadman

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richzx6r

could i just ask what game took u 8-10mins to load

 

In my opinon, bringing load times to 'acceptable levels' is quite hard for programmers, but soom developers have chosen to do so e.g. with Uncharted.  Also, porting games from the 360 won't help in terms of loading time, because the 360 and ps3 work in totally differet ways.

Message Edited by trubadman on 28-02-2009 06:28 PM
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05
/16

lewboiii

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its not being neglected must be sony xbox fanboys writing it, most of the adverts on dvds now say out now on Blu-Ray & DVD
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02
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JudgeFredd

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Regarding this thing about slower Blu-ray I have read countless times that a 2x Blu-ray can read as much data as a 10x DVD. I'm not too sure about the Xbox 360 but I think its drive is 12x so the PS3 isn't really all that disadvantaged in that area.

I'm glad the PS3 drive spins so slowly because it cuts down on noise.

 

As for games being limited to DVD 9 many developers say that this is enough for the current generation, and since they seem to be moving more and more to downloadable 'extra' content they're probably more than happy with this. Slap half a game on a disc and sell the other half by pretending it's extra content, nudge nudge, wink wink. Why would they want to fill 25/50GB when they could make more money selling what won't fit on a DVD 9 as extra content.

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02
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FixBeat

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some good replies, thanks people.

 

i wasn't aware that games are taking longer to load on ps3?  GTA4 that definately is not the case!  the cut scenes in GTA4 especially take longer than the PS3 to load.  i guess it's alot to do with how it's programmed too though.

 

about DVD being enough for the current generation.  and compressed vs uncompressed.  well if it's compressed on the DVD, that for one will make loading time longer, as it has to load it then uncompress it.

 

compression was invented to solve a PROBLEM, that there's not enough space on current media for what the developers want to produce.  that problem is now solved permantently with extra capacity discs (blu-ray), so why use compression software which WILL make a difference to the end quality when you don't need to on blu-ray?

 

so if you are right and when they go onto PS3 they're uncompressed, that simply means that put a ps3 game next to a 360 game on 2 48" HD tvs and the ps3 should look better to the trained eye everytime.  is this the case?

 

---------------------

 

sorry about my uber geekiness lol. 

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02
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Shaggy2000

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Compression technology these days is so advanced that games on the 360 frequently take up less space than a similiar game on the original Xbox. Infact the technology is always advancing, it wouldnt surprise me if the next Halo game actually takes up less space on a DVD than Halo 3.

At the end of the day games developers could use up an entire DVD or even an entire Blu Ray, but this takes time and more imprtantly money, why make a game a third longer if its not going to increase sales, plus the most people dont actually finish the game they buy, I know I have loads of games that I have played two thrids through and just left it for "the next big thing".

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whereismax123

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Shaggy2000 wrote:
Compression technology these days is so advanced that games on the 360 frequently take up less space than a similiar game on the original Xbox. Infact the technology is always advancing, it wouldnt surprise me if the next Halo game actually takes up less space on a DVD than Halo 3.

At the end of the day games developers could use up an entire DVD or even an entire Blu Ray, but this takes time and more imprtantly money, why make a game a third longer if its not going to increase sales, plus the most people dont actually finish the game they buy, I know I have loads of games that I have played two thrids through and just left it for "the next big thing".


thats right . and that was the orignal point of why microsoft choose to remian with dvd , as they belive the new compression methods still dont put the dvd out its time yet . when i look i usenet i can see games like halo 3 not taking up much more space than halo 2 . metal gear came in at about 30 gigs from usenet . alot of the exclusives have huge amounts of space from audio not needing to be compressed nearly as much 

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02
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Shaggy2000

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whereismax123 wrote:

Shaggy2000 wrote:
Compression technology these days is so advanced that games on the 360 frequently take up less space than a similiar game on the original Xbox. Infact the technology is always advancing, it wouldnt surprise me if the next Halo game actually takes up less space on a DVD than Halo 3.

At the end of the day games developers could use up an entire DVD or even an entire Blu Ray, but this takes time and more imprtantly money, why make a game a third longer if its not going to increase sales, plus the most people dont actually finish the game they buy, I know I have loads of games that I have played two thrids through and just left it for "the next big thing".


thats right . and that was the orignal point of why microsoft choose to remian with dvd , as they belive the new compression methods still dont put the dvd out its time yet . when i look i usenet i can see games like halo 3 not taking up much more space than halo 2 . metal gear came in at about 30 gigs from usenet . alot of the exclusives have huge amounts of space from audio not needing to be compressed nearly as much 




Thats kind of the point, MGS4 does use up virtually an entire Blu Ray disc, but thats because the audio isnt compressed and no doubt alot of the textures etc. wont be compressed. I'm sure that if this information was compressed using modern compression algorithms it would fit onto a DVD disc, and if it was compressed I wonder how many people would truthfully be able to hear (or see) the difference.
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02
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conan23uk

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i read that even ut3 couldn't fit on a dvd,   but it does. wasnt rfom supposed to use all most of the space on a bluray? but that looked rubbish and wasnt a particularly a big game.
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conan23uk wrote:
i read that even ut3 couldn't fit on a dvd,   but it does. wasnt rfom supposed to use all most of the space on a bluray? but that looked rubbish and wasnt a particularly a big game.

 

And was a launch title. Yeah because things don't improve over the course of a consoles lifecycle ...
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02
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FixBeat

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@shaggy

 

the creator of MGS4 said in CVG magazine in an interview (its a mag so i can't link) that it would take 4 DVDs to fit that game on!  i doubt he would have meant uncompressed, and i also think that if he knew you could compress that to 1 DVD he would omit that detail, certainly without CVG picking up on it? 

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fleinn

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Shaggy2000 wrote:
Compression technology these days is so advanced that games on the 360 frequently take up less space than a similiar game on the original Xbox. Infact the technology is always advancing, it wouldnt surprise me if the next Halo game actually takes up less space on a DVD than Halo 3.

At the end of the day games developers could use up an entire DVD or even an entire Blu Ray, but this takes time and more imprtantly money, why make a game a third longer if its not going to increase sales, plus the most people dont actually finish the game they buy, I know I have loads of games that I have played two thrids through and just left it for "the next big thing".



It's a bit more convoluted than that. Most multiplatform titles don't use wider addressing space or asynchronous loading for more than relatively small pieces of data at a time, for example. It's because you design the program logic differently on a PC system - you typically won't create this type of mechanic because loading externally can't be predicted.. or, it takes a different amount of time to access the data (different ram, drive, cpu), and is different every time (dynamic levels, etc), in general..

So you implement cache misses instead, where every exception (the exception being when the data isn't there, but should be), which triggers an IO operation. After that, it's typical that you implement areas where you load different resources and so on to lessen the I/O latency. Which is why the BD is jumping like mad when you play a multiplat title - because the logic reads individual resources and closes the operation, before doing another on a different part of the disc - etc.

But if you allowed for something a bit more strategic, and had the option to stream larger resources asynchronously without taking a hit on the performance of the game- engine - then suddenly IO loads can be much bigger and take all the time in the world without the player noticing.

So it's not really lazy developers... it's just the techniques most are using are scaled for linear systems with different hardware with widely differing performance. So creating critical sections where the entire game locks up if IO isn't completed - that's not typically something you do.

Still - it's an interesting discussion if we look at what actually is most expensive.. Heard a comment not long ago about Flower - they said: "wow, designing all the grass- animations must've taken ages!". But most likely they just designed a mechanism for wind blowing on one grass, and then expanded on it - it's just that you don't have this kind of processing power on a PC, so you wouldn't choose that solution. Same with ripples in the water - programming the waves might be tricky, but it takes a hell of a lot less time than creating a series of animations that trigger each other in a believable way. And the blu- ray thing is a lot like that - it's possible to do it differently, but it requires you to think in a different way.

No doubt most will start to say that it costs more to develop for something like the ps3, and that it's made platform- dependent, and so on, of course. But the mechanisms used are typically much more general than many of the techniques that work best on a very specific kind of PC architecture. The ones we're using now are not scalable to infinity, for example, because - such a thing as the cache- hits... this meets the wall sooner or later, and will cripple an application running on a low clock- cycle device, mobile phone, etc, limiting the possible operations on it to a laughable nothing compared to the different approach.. So if you look at it more fully, it could well be that developing for a parallel architecture in the first place is actually more convenient for a developer in many very real life examples, and scales very conveniently on several different types of devices. Even if it will cost more in practice to some extent, if you count in "lost sales" for specific competing devices, or that you can't enter such and such markets, and so on. Or if it means you need to hire in expertise to create new tools, when the existing ones are "sufficient", and things of that sort.

But personally, I have had so extremely enough of the MS propaganda about this now. Because the only argument left isn't a technical one, it's an economical one in the existing market. Before I could accept that - there were two competing approaches, and each of them had obvious strenghts and weaknesses, and had on the average about the same performance. But the reason why this persists now that we've reached a power drain/processing power wall just doesn't have anything to do with technology anymore. That such and such techniques are considered "best" has nothing to do with what's technologically best, or even whether it's the most convenient (in the sense I described). It's got to do with orthodoxies and presumptions developers have, at best. And at worst it's only got something to do with very aggressive marketing.

We see this very clearly on the market- economical dominated IT studies in my town now. They choose tools and projects very consciously from what is "going to be" producing marketable solutions. And if that means crawling up MS's arse, then that's what they're going to do. .Net, the damned DLL model, the driver architectures, vb- script, and on and on - all of it is kept less and less because it's the best tools for a job, but because it's immediately possible to produce solutions to an existing and limited system that's marketable. And more and more it's not necessary to know maths or imaginary numbers, logic or assembly languages to have an acceptable programming production. I.e, it's more of a hobby than it is necessary to use - because you learn to use a particular program, belive that to be the entirety of the universe, and that's all you need.

But make no mistake about it - parallel designs is where we're heading. The ps3 spearheads that development in some ways.. but whatever will follow that in the general market, for personal computer devices, portable solutions, etc.. is going to be interesting.

And I won't shed tears when both Intel and MS falls under the bus on that one.
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Gamerwillz

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Yes, we blame the Xbox 360 for game installs and restricted content in Blu-ray discs in multi-platform games. This is what exclusives are for! PS3 exclusives is where Blu-ray really shines! No installs and limited contents! If no exclusives, why use Blu-ray? So we have to say thanks to the Xbox 360 for small GTA IV.
Message Edited by Gamerwillz on 26-02-2009 08:08 PM
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Gamerwillz wrote:
Yes, we blame the Xbox 360 for game installs and restricted content in Blu-ray discs in multi-platform games. This is what exclusives are for! PS3 exclusives is where Blu-ray really shines! No installs and limited contents! If no exclusives, why use Blu-ray? So we have to say thanks to the Xbox 360 for small GTA IV.
Message Edited by Gamerwillz on 26-02-2009 08:08 PM

Well i have a few ps3 exclusives that have to be installed onto the HDD...

 

MGS4,Everybodys golf,Gran Turismo,warhark (this doesnt use the disc at all or GT5p),Heavenly Sword .

 

Also,PURE wasnt developed by the motorstorm devs....It was done by the ex CLIMAX team (motoGP series on the 360) for disney.......And i'm also sure SONY had a hand in the development of DVD tech....Not just Toshiba.

 

 http://www.dvdfaq.com.cn/kb/KB759-2006920.html

 

No single company "owns" DVD. The official specification was developed by a consortium of ten companies: Hitachi, JVC, Matsu*****a, Mitsubishi, Philips, Pioneer, Sony, Thomson, Time Warner, and Toshiba
Message Edited by tooms109 on 27-02-2009 06:53 PM
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03
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metallicorphan

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well,i for one have to wonder if Blu-Ray is needed,sure its good for games like MGS4,but if you HAVE to install the game and load/install the 'acts' in that game...maybe the Blu-Ray format for games is too much for the PS3(it seems that it isnt on level terms with the hardware if you ask me) 

 

i for one have no problems playing DVDs both 360 and the PS3 have great games that are fine on DVDs..i even dont mind switching discs like with Lost Odyssey...takes about 5 seconds..Lost Odyssey was 4 discs so it took roughly about a minute switching disc if you include getting up of the sofa,LOL

 

Blu-Ray are good for games,but not entirely needed right now...next gen,sure Blu-Ray or whatever will be next

 

and no,i dont blame the 360...the console came out in 2005

 

from Wiki on blu ray

'The first Blu-ray Disc titles were released on June 20, 2006'

 

the 360 has been strong since launch..using DVDs

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The best demonstration of what Blu-ray is capable of when used correctly is Burnout Paradise. There's no install to disc, yet still it streams a huge city from disc without any glitches or slowdown even when you drive around at crazy speeds. Mandatory installs == Lazy developers
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GChris wrote:
The best demonstration of what Blu-ray is capable of when used correctly is Burnout Paradise. There's no install to disc, yet still it streams a huge city from disc without any glitches or slowdown even when you drive around at crazy speeds. Mandatory installs == Lazy developers

 

Agreed.
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