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23 Oct 2017
By JonssonThree

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GT: Sport - Online races penalties

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23 Oct 2017
By JonssonThree

While GT sport is a tremendous update in online races since earlier iterations of the game, there are a few things that just ruin the experience for me. I acknowledge that not every race is going to be perfect and perhaps the sportsmanship rating takes a while to separate the players who intend to steer clear from other cars and those that don't really care as long as they get ahead (it's still too early for me to tell). 

 

However, I feel like those that ram into other players should get penalized a lot more harshly than they currently are. Either by giving them a hard slow down period (10+ sec) where they're forced to slow down instantly as opposed to the softer slow down some time during the race effect currently in place. While this may still ruin that race for the player getting rammed into, the racer that rammed him/her, would at least fall behind enough for other racers to be spared. 

 

Or another alternative would be to increase the ghost mode sensitivity, which is an excellent feature. I for one would appreciate the ghost mode to activate a lot easier, to where a racer coming in too hot would instantly get ghosted to save other racers from getting thrown back simply for going at the correct speed through a corner. 

 

Again, this may just be my experience as other racers may have climbed in the sportsmanship rating to where the players around them respect each other, but my experience so far has been: either you get pole/near-pole position and get ahead quickly, or you get stuck in an endless pushing and shoving to get ahead of each other. Even if you get to pole position, you may get dragged down by an eager racer coming in too hot through the first corner (speaking from experience). 

 

I personally would suggest a combination of the two, harder penalties as well as a more sensitive ghost mode activation, but fully understand if some believe getting rammed sometimes is part of the racing experience and feel like the ghost mode would take away from the experience. But something needs to be done quickly, otherwise people may not feel like the online mode is worthwhile (and let's be honest, there isn't much left if people stop playing online races)

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bkog234

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Today I drove in Monza. I'm really scared of how aggressive and unfair already at SR B is driven. All but the first three drivers were punished. I started on 10 and before and after me, the drivers rammed each other out. I drove very defendively and was able to evade all trouble. So I finally came up to 3 and was able to improve on A. I was very fortunate that my race went so well. I could have been rammed as well and would have dropped even further in the SR rating. The drivers seem to have gotten faster but also more aggressive. Everyone wants to improve their placement as quickly as possible and tries to ram through the field. The speed was genrell good otherwise I would have qualified better than 10. But in the race there were so many accidents and punishments, that I went without a fight up to 3. I just had to wait until the drivers in front of me rammed each other off the street. If so aggressively driven in B I do not want to know how to drive at D or E is. So bad I have SR B not in memory. I have the feeling that fairnes has worsened significantly from the end of 2017 until today. Either new, more aggressive players have come along or the previous players are frustrated because they do not achieve the successes they are aiming for and are now trying with violence. I guess the second because the speed and the racing lines were good. The driver did not look like a beginner to me. If that is the case, then they have learned to drive fast, but at the same time they do not understand either the right strategy or the rules of fairness. In this sense, the penalty system as a method of education has failed.

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phil-mac57

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I have read a few of the comments here and at other times about the poor race skills of some drivers.

Obviously the rankings setup is not quite up to where it should be.

Perhaps now is a good time to introduce damage to cars who hit others. If you are the car hit you escape any damage and penalty. Should your car be disabled by damage then it should be stopped on the side of the track untill the race ends. (It could also be ghosted to stop anyone running into it if it were in a bad position.)

Not being able to leave the race would provide an additional penalty and perhaps instill a little caution into the player.

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Damage would certainly eliminate some of the criticisms. If there were realistic damage both vehicles would be affected by an accident. That is a pity for the one who was perhaps innocent.But his race is usually destroyed after a crash anyway. However, it punishes the offender immediately. If it is clear to everyone that every crash can end the race or at least severely affect competitiveness, it will certainly be different. This does not only apply to accidents between two vehicles. I often see drivers scrambling walls (wallriding) and gaining benefits if the game does not punish them. If this would damage the vehicle, this behavior would no longer be advantageous either. Generally one often sees drivers who are more or less over the limit of the whole race. Sometimes you feel like you are fighting a group of Maldonados. They always make smaller and bigger mistakes that currently have little effect on them. But I always have a bad feeling when they are around me because I never know if someone rams me from them if he overdo it. If there were any damage that would affect them, they might be a bit more careful. In reality, no one can drive constantly over his limit and thus at risk of accidents without suffering any consequences. Maldonado is the best example. No F1 team wants to hire him today because of his many accidents.

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S2N-Ava

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Unfortunately as good as FULL damage is great...  I cannot see PD ever introducing it to Sport Mode as they want the masses to play online.

 

 

Racing behind someone is difficult unless you know how they tackle a particular track and car combination.....   We are racing online and generally don't know where someone is going to apply brakes...   Some brake earlier than others, and with damage... that is your Engine gone to half power.  With good Matchmaking, Braking Points shouldn't be the biggest issue.

 

 

Still, racing should be with the hardest settings and not how it is set up at present....    I'd welcome damage in an instance...    Not too sure about the people out there that just like to demolish other people's races for fun....   PD do ban such people, but they'd just make a new Account and carry on their disgusting behaviour!!

 

 

Ava

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I do agree about PD not bringing it into the game (even though there is provision for it) but perhaps there could be another class of competition for those players that are in favour of this type of contest. You don't have to be the fastest but you do have to be consistent and race clean. Sure there is going to be some slight bumps and paint loss but there should be no huge damage and thus no big penalties.

We as consumers should raise these ideas so that PD can work to achieve a better game. 

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But like I said if you were the car being hit you would receive no damage and continue to race.

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For this, however, the program must first be able to clearly distinguish offenders and victims. If only the driveway has the damage then there are soon dozens of drivers who make a brake test at every opportunity to cause damage to the rear man. Unfortunately, the exact distinction between perpetrator and victim is the big weakness of the game. This is exactly the reason for the many false penalties.

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Good point I had not considered that.

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Driving skill is a big impact on what happens in a game but the fundamentals of the penalty system are so flawed genuinely I’m shocked as to how they made it through quality testing.   Complaints on the Penalty system have been raised on every single gaming forum worldwide - the response from both Sony and PD - nothing, they have made no positive changes to the game for a long time - adding more cars and tracks are nice but don’t address the Core elements in my eyes that are broken.

 

who thought making collisions effectively 50 50 blame was in any way fair.... which should tell you all you need to know about the developers interest in fixing it

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I think it's not the lack of will or interest that's the problem. The problem is it's basically a 15 year old game (GT4 for PS2) that's been tweaked a bit over the years and dressed up in fancy graphics. That's why it is so bloody difficult to make improvements.

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You may well be right, but if that is the case Sony should be asking why so long in development - 4 years - and why such a big budget - many tens of millions it was widely reported.   I think people would be happier if we could get any kind of response from PD on what, if anything they are trying to do.... or not as the case may be

 

after all this is the official PS4 forum

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Indeed, the silence is by far the worst.

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They blame 50:50 because their algorithms are not able to detect who is really responsible for a crash. So they just punish both. When I brake and someone rams me from behind, they can not clearly determine who was to blame. If I just do a brake test in front of him to make him crashing, then it's my fault. But if I brake to prevent an accident with a car in front and someone rams me from behind then he is to blame. However, these two cases can not be recognized and distinguished by the system. That's the big problem. They only recognize individual incidents but not the big picture. The algorithms are basically quite primitive. I have already described that earlier. If there is a crash usually both get a penalty. But if someone leaves the road during the crash, the program thinks this driver would be the victim. This is exploited by some unfair drivers who then crashing inside me in the turn with two wheels in the grass. I lose the place and get in addition a punishment because the program recognizes that the other is partly in the grass. The algorithms did not recognize that the other driver deliberately went through the grass to ram me. Here lies the mistake. The algorithms must be able to recognize and analyze the overall situation. The current primitive algorithms are flawed and can be misused by unfair gamblers for their benefit.

 

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After several good races I was just SR S again until just now. But the race just gave me so many penalties that I'm now A again. But I could well observe what's wrong with the penalty system. It was a race on the Nürburgring GP track. It was the same again, riders rammed me sideways in the corner and I got penalties. This time, however, I braked myself once and rammed the side of my front man in a curve with two wheels in the grass. Although I was clearly guilty in this case, there was only one penalty for the innocent front man. So I could inadvertently cause this error in the system. In this way I could easily win places in the race. It's so easy, just brake a little later and choose an inner line with one or more wheels leaving the track a bit. Then you use your front man as a brake block, push him from his line and he gets even the penalty. But I will not do that on purpose, because that has nothing to do me fair racing. The developers should fix this as quickly as possible, as more and more drivers take advantage of this trick.

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An addendum from me: I just rode the same race again. It was again rammed sideways but there were no penalties. The only difference to the first race was that this time all were SR A or B instead of SR S. I have already read that the penalties are given according to the SR. An S driver seems to be penalized for things that go unpunished with a lower-rated driver. This seems to have been confirmed in my last race.
I think this rule is wrong. Drivers get accustomed to aggressive behavior in lower ratings and then, of course, when they ascend, behave the way they are used to. That would explain why some drivers are also so aggressive at S. They have probably just risen and ride as they are used to in lower grades. Very difficult are races where the matchmaking is not right and where then drivers compete with different SR ratings. There, some drivers may allow themselves much more than others. I've seen for myself how a B rider in a S field drove half of the other riders away without getting a penalty. Rules should be the same for everyone. If someone learns it wrong in lower grades, it will be difficult to teach them to behave differently later. What do you think?

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I think you are absolutely right.In fact, it's pretty much why I don' do sport mode. The rules/penalties do not encourage sportsmanship, quite the opposite. And who was it exactly, who thought it would be a good idea to have different rules depending on what rating you have, surely it goes against everything we are taught about fairness and equal competition.

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Yeah, it's pretty much what happened to me for a long time. In a couple of races, I dropped 2-3 levels. The next day, I was able to go back to level S, but it was awkward. In the first race, I had average pace, so I basically just let everyone pass and tried to finish the race without incidents. The second race at Mount Panorama, was clean and really positive. I had a very strong pace and was able to build a strong gap to the cars behind me, and ultimately finished third.

 

Those are the only ways to keep your SR: either let everyone pass you; or hope to have a strong pace and build a good gap to the cars behind. But the system is definitely flawed. I simply can't believe this hasn't been fixed, yet. Very poor work from the developers.

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bkog234

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It is exactly like that. I hope not to get hit in the first corner. When I realize that I am faster I try to build a distance to my backers. When I realize that I'm not faster, I'll leave the grubbers behind me. Fighting with them or just driving my pace does not help, because at some point they push themselves past. The result of this is usually time penalties and grading in the SR rating. Therefore, it is better to let the drummers over. Unfortunately, this has little to do with racing and is also not much fun. That's why I'm seriously considering uninstalling GT Sport.
Besides, it is a shame that fair players have to do something like that. The system punishes them instead of protecting them. I would be interested to know what Charlie Whiting would say. Here the developers should urgently do something.
Last week I had a single rider with whom I could fight really well and fairly. Instead of ramming me he analyzed my lines behind me and then started a very clean overtaking maneuver. We fought well the rest of the race without even touching us. In the end he came in front of me but that did not matter because it was a great race. That's exactly what I like, but unfortunately it happens far too rarely.

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In my experience, it isn't that much worth it, to indulge in online racing in ordinary, random lobbies. Sometimes, you find a cool lobby with fair players you can race with. Most of the time, you find players ready and willing to do anything to get or stay ahead. That's why I think you should only play with your friends. Other than that, just find a few fair players, send them a friends request and only race with them, instead.

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After not driving for a week because of the unfair punishment, I tried again today. I rode Daily Race C, so 15 laps with pit stop. You could think that driving with such a race is more careful. But that was not so. Already in the first corners there were several crashes. So it went on for the whole race. I started from 15 and only did my faultless laps and arrived in the middle of the race before the boxing stops at postion 5. Here I have let overtake anyone who has jostled from behind. Partly these drivers made mistakes only a few turns later and I was over again. Totally over-motivated so for such a long race. In the end I only turned 10 because I got punished. Although I let faster drivers pass, some did not wait in the last 2 laps and just jostled me off the street. So I got 5 seconds and lost time. Without the penalty, I would have become 6 or 7.
This leads to the following conclusions:
1. You can not prevent punishment, no matter how fair and defensive you go. If the others around you are aggressive, you'll get punished sooner or later due to the faulty penalty system.
2. This shows me once again that many have no understanding of fairness and clean driving at all. In a longer race with tire wear, it makes no sense to ram other already in the first turn. And if you drive constantly 110% you do not be surprised if the tires are completely over at the end of a stint. If I had become 6 or 7 with my lap times then the others could have achieved much better results. They destroyed their races and the races of the others. At the moment we see something like that in real racing with Verstappen vs Riciardo. There you see who caused the accidents and who gets the points and the wins. In Gt Sport we unfortunately have too many Verstappen and too few Riciardo.
3. Many do not have the motivation to bring exciting and fair motorsport to life. They just want to get the best possible placement, no matter how. This may work in the singleplayer but in the multiplayer it destroys the races. The two videos on fairness in Gt Sport are not nearly enough. The game should be extended to fairness missions that must be completed before you can drive online. In addition, it would be good to stop showing the DR so as not to fuel the competition any further. SR is perfect. Of course, DR can still be determined to enable matchmaking but they should not show it.

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i think that gt sport must put full damage in the races. 

it was also in grid. 

than the drivers are driving save because damage cost alot of speed. 

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